Many thanks for the newest estimate that i hadn’t seen before
I am not sure if you had entry to Douglas Richardson’s Plantagnet Origins or otherwise not, as it is composed since a research to own People in the us which have colonial forefathers out of Plantagenet ancestry. The guy gets as one of their proofs you to definitely Joanna try the brand new mother away from Gwladus Ddu that Llewelyn offered the brand new features out-of Knighton and you may Norton castles for the Shropshire in order to Ralph Mortimer whenever he and you can Gwladus was partnered. It could was indeed illegal to own Llewelyn to offer Joanna’s property to help you an enthusiastic illegitimate child (otherwise person who was not a child regarding Joanna). The qualities regarding Norton and Knighton remained on the Mortimer family relations thereafter. The latest estimate try, “That in case brand new Queen provide Property in order to one that have a beneficial lady out of his kindred in frank relationship, and also the lady dyeth instead of point, the guy on the Kings circumstances will maybe not hold on a minute to own their lifetime, as woman was the cause of the latest present.” To phrase it differently, the fresh new services would have reverted back once again to brand new crown in advance of they would have been supplied to an infant who was maybe not Joanna’s.
Hey, Marilyn, I didn’t have access to brand new Plantaganet Origins by Doug Richardson, however, performed have access to the countless talks associated with him and you will their theories with other genealogists (specific getting him, but some along with against). In my opinion, while i made in my personal previous paper, one just what shifts they in my situation(Joanna being the mother of Gwladus), ‘s the transfer of qualities you discuss so you’re able to Ralph de- Mortimer through to their ed a couple of the children ‘John’ and ‘Joan.’ I cannot that is amazing if Gwladus got the latest ded their particular pupils thus. In spite of the arguments between the eminent genealogists We speak about above, there’s a general opinion one to Gwladus Ddu are going to be reasonably defined as the new child off Llywelyn ab Iorwerth of the Joanna, child (subsequently legitimised) out-of John, Queen regarding England. Allow me to just take which possible opportunity to agree with Sharon (inside the an email to me) you to Llywelyn’s daughter Gwenllian was of the Tangwystyl and never Joanna, and so are blood sister to help you Gruffudd. I ft so it partially for the a modern checklist included in ‘Royal or any other Historical letters Illustrative of the rule from Henry 111,’ modified because of the Rev. Walter W. Shirley, vol step one. To the profiles five hundred-503 ‘s the transcript from an original page old Marshall, Earl from Pembroke, so you’re able to Queen Henry 111. Within page, Marshall discusses his siege of the castles from Crum, Kilmore and you will O’Realy. The guy listings people the guy found in the castle O’Realy whenever they surrendered, they included: “…uxor Wilelmi de Lascy, filia Leulini, soror Griffini de- patre ainsi que matre, ainsi que uxor Thomae Blund fratis dicti Willelmi, mais aussi mater dictorum Willelmi mais aussi Thomae ….” I’m advised that means i have here Gwenllian, daughter away from Prince llywelyn, exactly who is apparently named ‘aunt regarding Gruffudd.’ As you may know Gruffudd are the brand new illegitimate young buck regarding Llywelyn, it’s removed that ‘de- patre ainsi que matre’ means Gwenllian and you will Gruffudd was basically complete bloodstream sis and sis. Had Gwenllian been Joanna’s child and that Queen Henry’s relative, undoubtedly Marshall might have mentioned thereon fact? Which incapacity from de- Lacy’s wife given that king’s niece, is actually pulled as near certain proof one to Gwenllian was not the brand new child of your own king’s cousin Joanna.
These types of qualities were part of Joanna’s maritagium of her father Queen John
Ken: Many thanks for you to definitely reference to Gwenllian. I am not an expert genealogist, however, I actually do a great amount of search on my own lines. I do believe a number of the “pros” are extremely envious and you may furious of each other (at least seemingly means in a few of the things they post). Discover things that our company is just not planning to understand with certainty about members pretty hot girls lithuanian of the brand new MA as they did not keep vital records such as for example i would now, therefore genealogists and historians need to use their utmost view inside the sorting some thing away. In fact, vital records try a fairly “new” concept – of numerous claims within the us did not keep information out-of births and fatalities up until the early 1900’s. We belong to numerous origin societies where I have had to prove eleven otherwise 12 generations, and you may believe me it is not easy. And so i very delight in the issue out of evaluating MA forefathers. (Additionally the unfortunate matter is the fact that records available for the MA are of your royalty and nobility – absolutely nothing anyway into well-known individuals).